June 11, 2019 New York New York • The Association of Independent Music Publishers (AIMP) Indie Music Publishing Summit • Songwriter A&R 101 Panel  Speakers Pictured From Left To Right: Mark Brown, Vice President and General Manager, Round Hill Music • Latoya Lee, Vice President A&R, Atlas Music Group • John Ozier, AIMP Nashville President • R. Wayne Martin, Founder and Principal, mthree | martin music management (Moderator) • Bob Donnelly, Counsel, Fox Rothschild LLP • Mike Molinar, General Manager, Big Machine Music • Photo Credit: Larry Busacca

June 11, 2019 New York New York • The Association of Independent Music Publishers (AIMP) Indie Music Publishing Summit • Songwriter A&R 101 Panel

Speakers Pictured From Left To Right: Mark Brown, Vice President and General Manager, Round Hill Music • Latoya Lee, Vice President A&R, Atlas Music Group • John Ozier, AIMP Nashville President • R. Wayne Martin, Founder and Principal, mthree | martin music management (Moderator) • Bob Donnelly, Counsel, Fox Rothschild LLP • Mike Molinar, General Manager, Big Machine Music • Photo Credit: Larry Busacca

Uploaded by Wayne Martin on 2019-07-03.

Luke Danelon, Ghost Rocket Music (Left), Wayne Martin, mthree (Right)

Luke Danelon, Ghost Rocket Music (Left), Wayne Martin, mthree (Right)




Dylan Berry: “I’m Dylan Berry, BomPop Radio, what’s happening up here in the city of Los Angeles, California and you are tuning in because you love us and who can blame you? Today I have on the show, Mr. Wayne Martin. Wayne has a very diverse, long career in the music industry, he’s been an executive at all the major labels it appears, Warners, CBS, Sony Music, it goes on...also in the indie music side, which we love, as a Senior Vice President at a few different companies, the Knitting Factory was one of those, yeah?

Wayne Martin: “That’s true”

Dylan Berry : “I can’t say the other one: shawn-ah-chee.”

Wayne Martin: “Shanachie (shawn-ah- key), it’s a Gaelic word.”

Dylan Berry: “Shanachie, I should know that because I’m Scot/Irish.”

Wayne Martin: “See?”

Dylan Berry: “Isn’t that Gaelic? I should know that too.”

Wayne Martin: “You should. Look what we learned today.”

Dylan Berry: “You know what I mean? See? That’s a lunch, let’s go get lunch.”

Wayne Martin: “Let’s do it.”

Dylan Berry: “We also have Luke Danalon in the house today, and Luke is the former Marketing Manager for Live Nation, House of Blues Touring, he also has done a bunch of different things, independent music festivals for Sirius XM, Red Bull, Pepsi, MTV and so forth. He is now an artist manager with the band Nicki’s Wives, which is sick and ridiculously good.”

Luke Danalon: “Thanks Bro.”

Dylan Berry: “You’re welcome buddy (laughs). Ghost Rocket Music is your company and I wanted to bring you guys in here so we can kinda share two perspectives; we’ve got the Creative Executive perspective and we’ve got the live touring side...So! Wayne, let’s talk about you, man.”

Wayne Martin : “Umhmm.”

Dylan Berry: “ So, what is it that you are doing right now?”

Wayne Martin: “So mthree has three capabilities; we are an artist management firm, we just signed someone out of Nashville last month to kind of kick off the year, a singer/songwriter in that kind of Pop/Country vein. And in addition to that we’re doing some organizational consulting so record companies, publishing companies...”

Dylan Berry: “So, I’m a record company...”

Wayne Martin: “You are!”

Dylan Berry: “And I need to know what the what for is, I contact Wayne, and what does Wayne tell me?”

Wayne Berry: “I can tell you a lot of things...”

Dylan Berry: “No, but I mean besides what you’d tell me right now for asking that question. (laughs) What are the things that you typically consult with them about?”

Wayne Martin: “Welp, so here’s an example. An A&R department might send me out quietly and without any fanfare or any notice.”

Dylan Berry: “That’s been my experience with A&R Departments, they just send me out quietly. That was my experience when I was in bands” (laughs).

Wayne Martin: “You’re done, you’re done, thank you for your time” (laughs).

Dylan Berry: “Carry on.”

Wayne Martin: “...go to a show, and give feedback quietly to an executive there, the band doesn’t know that I’m there, the A&R team doesn’t know that I’m there, coming quietly to the back of the room and report back the next day to a conference call, and let them know from an outside perspective what is going with that act, what went well, what didn’t go well, what they need to improve on, ya know, I keep it really quiet, and move on to the next one. They may also come up with developmental strategies, or ask me to consult on strategies with the marketing department.”

Dylan Berry: “Who are some of the acts that you’ve worked with that our listeners might recognize?”

Wayne Martin: “Um you know, I work more with developing artist rather than big name artists, I don’t tell a lot of war stories, I know a lot of secrets, so I don’t spill a lot of that, but the majors, anyone who was big in the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s, you know those kind of situations, so...”

Dylan Berry: “Gotcha, that was cool, that was some straight CIA shit (laughs), Wayne just pulled his CIA card, he’s like ya know what? I take care of problems. That’s what they tell you when you say are you in the CIA, they say, I take care of problems.”

Wayne Martin: “That’s kind of it. Someone said at dinner last night, the reason I have a good reputation because I don’t tell war stories and I don’t drop names, and that’s kind of my gig.”

Dylan Berry: “Well, good for you man, that’s good. So in your experience at these major labels, what is the biggest friction point for their artists to go from an emerging artist to success?”

Wayne Martin: “Uh, work ethic. Yeah, I think most often when someone gets involved in the team, and you’ve got all of these people tugging at you and telling you all these great things they’re doing for you, you kind of sit back and say, ‘cool, I’m good to go.’ And that’s exactly the OPPOSITE of what you should be doing. You should be networking, you should be talking to other musicians, you should be like, using that momentum to create your own, and so that work ethic. Kind of even if they worked really hard to get where they are, to get that record deal, and get that tour and get everything else coming together, a lot of times they just kind of chill, and when they chill, that’s when the record label gets really angry ‘cuz we can’t have that...”

Dylan Berry: “Well, they get batted around creatively because they need someone to drive that, right? And if you’re an artist and you’re not driving your own creativity, you end up being the 15th artist of the year and they don’t know who the hell you are, and you get usually get shuffled out.”

Wayne Martin: “Well yeah, you can get dropped really fast if you don’t write songs. One of my things is: if you’re a singer call yourself a singer, but don’t call yourself a songwriter if you don’t write songs. Right? So if you’re not writing some songs, then you’re not a songwriter, you may play around with that, but that’s not your career.”

Dylan Berry: “And let’s talk about.. a lot of people don’t think about the industry in this way, but let’s talk about the economics of the music industry, right, there’s a reason that the biggest rock stars in the world right now show up with a thumb drive and point a finger in the air in the EDM world right, they make a shitload of money for their labels...”

Wayne Martin: “They do.”

Dylan Berry: “very low overhead...I just saw that Avicii doc, which is really good and basically he had an excess of money, he didn’t have a band, it’s like...”

Wayne Martin: “There’s no 18 wheeler.”

Dylan Berry: “I know! There’s no three or four buses. Now, Luke you could speak to this. Normal tour: two buses, band, crew 18 people on the tour, what is the normal expense per show you’re looking at?”

Luke Danelon: “Per show? You could range anywhere from like, ok just to run the operations of the tour, anywhere from $25 to $50 grand for like a club and theatre level.”

Dylan Berry: “Per show.”

Luke Danelon: “Add a zero for arenas.”

Dylan Berry: “So you take a band, even a band that might be at a mid-level packing, 1500-2000 person room, that’s somebody like Three Doors Down, five, ten years after their biggest success right...”

Luke Danelon: “Right....”

Dylan Berry: “You’re doing thirty to fifty grand a show overhead, yeah?”

Luke Danelon: “There’s a lot of variables. It just depends on what you want. Production is one of those X factors. Do you want the crazy lighting package, you know... are you going to bring in set pieces, all that kind of stuff. Everything you bring out has to be taken with you everywhere, so the more you bring the more your expenses are gonna be. And when you start getting into like trucks, that’s when it gets really expensive, you know.”

Dylan Berry: “So, artists, if you’ve come up with this wonderful idea of being different and having a sixteen piece horn section, just understand that’s an extra two buses and and extra sixteen to twenty to thirty grand. You need to make in your guarantee to get booked, and if you’re not going to fill the room, ya know if you’re not filling a four thousand, five thousand person room, forget about it, right?”

Luke Danelon: “Yeah, I mean you know this is another really one of those elastic situations. It’s like what can you charge for a ticket price, ultimately the promoter is going to be paying your expenses so if they don’t feel they can make their money, then you’re not getting booked.”

Dylan Berry: “Right, so if you look at that from the economics of the music industry...if I walk into a room and I am a pop EDM producer who has amazing music, and I walk in a room and I’m a sixteen piece band, sixteen piece band is already at a disadvantage, right, just something to think about. Food for thought.

Alright, I’ve got Wayne Martin on the show right here, this is BomPop Radio, I’ve got Luke Danelon, that was Luke just talking there about the touring. Wayne is a music exectutive who has worked with all the major labels, and currently has his new company which was Martin Artist Management and it’s now morphed into mthree consulting. You want to tell us a bit about that?”

Wayne Martin: “Yeah sure, so mthree just stands for Martin Music Management, but it also means three capabilities. So one is artist management / career direction, the second is organizational strategies and development. And I’m bringing one client on in June of this year that’s not even a recording artist, but is a performer, world-renowned, so that when that locks in I’ll be in like yet a different kind of arena, but the same principles apply.”

Dylan Berry: “So when you say, it’s a performer, but not a recording artist...”

Wayne Martin: “Yes.”

Dylan Berry: “They’re doing other people’s music?”

Wayne Martin: “They’re not doing music.”

Dylan Berry: “Oh, so they’re like a physical performer?”

Luke Danelon: “Interesting!”

Wayne Martin: “Yeah, it’s really wild, so...”

Dylan Berry: “What kind of act, are we talking about like some crazy mime act?” (laughs) “Some Hobo the Clown, what’re we talkin’ about here?”

Wayne Martin: “Sshhh! No listen, you’re stealing my thunder here! (laughs) And then the third part is live events... and we’re going to take some bands on tour (speaking to Luke Danelon) which I’d like to talk to you about. We’re going to take some bands on tour on a concept that we’re working out right now with some investors and we’re going to launch that in 2022 throughout western Europe. So that’s the third capability. So music management, organizational management, and event management.”

Dylan Berry: “So that basically is a 360 except for in-house production, right? I mean basically, and maybe marketing...”

Wayne Martin: “Yeah, we do a lot of marketing and development, but we don’t do A&R, I mean, that’s not our vibe.”

Dylan Martin: “So how do the artists you work with sign? You’re retained to work with them by a third party?’

Wayne Martin: “I can be. I get about 300 submissions a year and I usually take on 3-4 clients, I got 11 projects right now for 2019.”

Dylan Berry: “Gotcha, awesome, can you talk about any of them, I know you’re CIA, so you can’t...” (laughs)

Wayne Martin: “I am CIA. I can talk about my Nashville client, Dominic Colizzi. So he’s going to be doing some work. I’m in L.A. to meet with some producers. We’re talking about his first recording, so it’s very cool.”

Dylan Berry: “Awesome. Well speaking about Nashville, we’ve got some Nashville in the house over there...Kage, she’s a fancy, famous radio personality. What station were you with Kage?”

Kage Sanderson: “i106.7(Nashville)”

Dylan Berry: “i106.7 Nashville, what up? So holdin’ it down up in here. Okay, Luke, tell me a little bit what you are involved in these days.”

Luke Danelon: “Right now I’m focusing on artist management. I have a young band, Nikki’s Wives, who is doing really well. They put out a song last year, got picked up by Tiesto, Sony picked it up in Germany and then Warner picked it up and then you know 15 million plays later, I’ve got my hands full.”

Wayne Martin: “Format/Genre?”

Luke Danelon: “So they’re more like and Alt/Rock band, but they straddle pop, they straddle EDM. And you know this is one of the weird conversations, (to Wayne) maybe manager to manager we can talk about this... it’s become a different climate that I see. I mean if you look at any kind of statistics at all in the recording industry the rules are out the window at this point and you know that. Nikki’s Wives - we’ve been getting some offers now and we’ve had to turn down everything because people want records and people want longevity and it’s like hey, we live in a world of singles. Like Ariana Grande for example, she just kind of switched gears when we were listening to her song today, and it’s like you’re no longer just a pop act, you’re no longer just a rock act ya know. If you can release music in the EDM space as a single, well, push it out there. So we’re in this position right now where we have our core of what the band wants creatively, but also there’s all these other sources because we’ve had a big hit in another genre,

so to speak, and now we’re just trying to figure out how to navigate our releases, and I think that’s a very difficult part.”

Wayne Martin: “It’s a whole new territory...you’ve got Kelsey Ballerini doing her own show in Las Vegas, and then at 1 o’clock in the morning flying to San Diego to go on stage with the Chainsmokers, right? So, the cross-pollination is incredible right now. It’s exponential as to what’s happening. And I don’t think anyone has strategized any of that - and that’s probably our goal as managers... is to try and figure out how to make those things happen in a more strategic way instead of kind of a more organic artistic way, which I think is how a lot of this stuff is coming together.”

Luke Danelon: (speaking to Wayne) “Yeah, and actually, I mean, looking towards the future and maybe a little bit of the past, I feel I might have had it a little bit easier than you being on the record side because I was in touring. We don’t deal with bands until they’re ready to tour, you know what I mean? You guys have to develop them, and now I’m learning as a manager.”

Wayne Martin: “Yeah, you got to teach them.”

Luke Danelon: “Exactly, you’ve gotta play both sides of the ya know...”

Dylan Berry: “Well, let’s talk about that, getting a band from ‘hey, this band’s great’ to a Live Nation where they’re booking tours and getting guarantees for 44 shows, what are the steps, if you could bullet point them that it takes to go from there to there, not including a little luck and look...”

Wayne Martin: “It’s a fair question. And the answer to that is if there was a formula, I would’ve already put a patent on it and I’d be on and island...”

Luke Danelon: “You’re damn right you would...” (laughs)

Wayne Martin: “So, there is! ...it has to be individualistic. It has to be completely customized to what they bring to the table and what they don’t. So you always turn up the volume on those things that are their strengths and you turn down the volume on the things that are their weaknesses. That could be creatively, that could be personality, that could be a lot of different things. And so to say that everyone follows the same path... it’s kind of like when we’ve got a rockstar manager. And you get signed to them and the band is like ‘well, you’re going to do for me what you did for them’ and it’s like, ‘No, you’re not the same people, it’s not the same sound, you don’t have the same personality, you don’t have the same look or drive, you don’t have the same fans, so how would I do it exactly the same way?’ So, that was just kind of a big circle around your question to say there’s no answer, in my opinion...”

Luke Danelon: “I couldn’t agree more.”

Wayne Martin: “Really?”

Luke Danelon: “Definitely. Every project’s been different.”

Dylan Berry: “Sorry, I disagree, just kidding, I actually agree.” (laughs)

Luke Danelon: “I was gonna say ‘do you know soething we don’t know?’”

Dylan Berry: “I just thought I’d go there” (using cartoon voice): “Actually, there’s a recipe, it’s called K-POP, where the fuck you guys been?” (laughs)

Luke Danelon: “That will do it.” (laughs)

Dylan Berry: “Anyway, there are those “recipe” acts, but that’s not the world we live in is it? We’re dealing with artists that aren’t plug n’ play. What is one of the biggest misconceptions that you’ve run across with new artists as to what their responsibility is to their own career?”

Wayne Martin: “We used to have a saying back at Sony, and that was if you show up at the conference room and you’re not going to participate in your own career, we’re not going to participate in it with you.”

Luke Danelon: “Definitely.”

Wayne Martin: “Right? So like you have to be engaged, and you have to learn things you don’t want to do, and you have to do things you don’t want to do. And I think a lot of times people say ‘hey, I wanted to be a recording artist, and now I’m a recording artist, how cool is that?’ I really don’t want to travel the day before and go in and get up at 5 o clock in the morning and go on the air, I don’t want to do that.’ Too bad, it’s your job.”

Luke Danelon: “Exactly, and you know what? When you think about that, think about the other 360 days a year you would’ve been serving food to people who have already made it, and then think about how your life is now.”

Wayne Martin: “If you’re a killer vocalist and your supposed to sing on the morning drive show, you’ve got to get up at 3 o’clock and you’ve got to warm up your vocal chords, you can’t just wake up and sing, so your body..”

Luke Danelon: “No drinking, no coffee.”

Wayne Martin: “...so your body’s got to be moving and functioning, your blood’s got to be flowing, you’ve got to be ready to go in and kill it ‘cuz this is your shot for people to hear you for the first time and hear what you’re about. I mean, these moments...my thing is ...be prepared for your moment.”

Dylan Berry: “And that’s not always...if you look at the reality of life, you know, spicy Indian food before the 4 in the morning call, maybe not a good look two hours on the radio tomorrow, ahh, ya know, I mean these are real things though, they really are ya know. We all have bad days, imagine everyday you’re on, right, that’s what a superstar is, everyday you’re on, everyday that your stomach hurts, you hurt your knee, you’ve got a big zit on your forehead, whatever it is, that’s part of the gig man. And I gotta tell ya, it doesn’t matter what level you’re on. I’ve talked to superstars, I’ve talked to emerging artists, ya know, Bruno Mars still has to show up in Oman and slap five with some Prince and play his show, and get treated like (clapping in background), I’m the sideshow for your party, yay...I’m sorry, but it’s the truth.”

Luke Danelon: “Ya know what though, I wanna tell you a real, ya know, first person perspective. And this is something to be hopeful for, for any artists who are planning on touring. It’s really, really tough at the beginning. You know, talk to any of your friends who’ve been on the road, but once you crossed that threshold and you start showing up and people roll out the red carpet and you have fans waiting outside, and the promoter is like “Oh my God, thank you so much for coming to our town, this is amazing!” And the radio station wants to meet you and there’s people at your meet and greet and fans are cheering, there is almost no better experience then rolling into a city and having that kind of welcome. And to do that months and months at a time, it’s a wonderful thing. So that should be the goal for touring, is

to really follow the advice, follow the industry strategy, do everything you possibly can right now, because if you can get the payoff, it’s so worth it.”

Wayne Martin: “I have conference calls scheduled every Thursday, and I have clients from Japan all the way over to Germany, so I’m in a lot of different time zones. And I schedule calls from nine in the morning until midnight every Thursday...”

Luke: “You don’t sleep either?”

Wayne: “I don’t sleep either. I’m on call 24/7 because if they’re touring and they’re in other time zones... but the reality is if you don’t show up for your phone call on Thursday, you didn’t come to work that day, and I’m mad, right? So, you can’t get on the phone with me? And everyone gets a 90 day trial period before I sign a contract with anybody, so we work together for three months. So if you don’t show up for work, you don’t get the contract, that’s it ya know? ‘Oh well, I scheduled a...I’ve got a co-write that day.’ ‘Well, you know what? You should’ve moved it. You had to work. If you were at Houlihan’s you’d be showing up for your shift, so, show up for your job!”

Luke Danelon: “Which is crazy to me, someone would show up for their shift at Houlihan’s but they won’t show up for a conference call with their label and management...I don’t have that problem...”

Wayne Martin: “Oh, I don’t either.” (laughs)

Luke Danelon: “Because we know. We know.” (laughs)

Dylan Berry: “There’s like twelve people that are not going to show up at Houlihan’s today. ‘I’m gonna be a singer, I’m out! Let’s go!’ (laughs) “I mean look the industry’s just like any other industry. And actually it is life, and it’s a parallel life, and you get to see these beautiful pictures and the lightings all good, and you don’t see everything behind the scenes, and you don’t see how much work people put in..and you know it’s funny... I interviewed the Chainsmokers on here a couple of years ago and um, they just got off tour and the one guy started singing, right? I think he sang on what was the song, Roses or, not Roses, uh what was the song he used to sing on? Anyway, and because people said you gotta do this, you gotta try, you gotta try, and I saw an article with him and their public positioning is that hey we’re party guys etc, ‘I’ve been training’...he said, ‘thank you so much for all the compliments on the Victoria’s Secret thing. I’ve been training every morning for two hours with a vocal coach to try to sing these things properly.’ And he was horrified to go do these things and ya know, you’ve gotta put in the work especially when you’re under the microscope of being put on! Because it’s even more, it’s enough to sing in the shower, but if your singin’ at the Victoria’s Secret fashion show on NBC in front of 40 million people you can really go (spazzy singing sounds) ya know, on that note!”

Wayne: “Right, you can’t fake it.”

Dylan Berry: “You can’t fake it. So anyway, it’s an interesting business and I don’t mean to, ya know, early on I was making it sound like a terrible business, it’s really not. There’s a lot of ups and downs and if anything ...shedding the lights on the fact you gotta even work harder than maybe working at Houlihan’s to do this, it’s an 18 hour a day job.”

Wayne Martin: “...you just have to be dedicated to your job, that’s all that anyone is saying. We’re not saying that this is, you know tremendously different, it’s ‘ya gotta be good at your job!’ If you want to keep your job, at ya know, Avon or anywhere else, you’re gonna work real

hard to keep your job, so you gotta work hard to keep your job. But the other part of it that factors in and it’s the wild card, is that fame can really screw some people up. And I’m a tour guide for that stuff because I’ve been through that stuff with people before. You know I’ve held their hands and I’ve called people in rehab and dealt with all that insanity. Um, and fame will mess you up. And you don’t get that at Houlihan’s or Avon, no matter how you work that’s not gonna happen...and it’s a great thing to have fame but there are artists here in L.A. that don’t leave home, and there’s a reason they don’t leave home, it’s because they don’t want to go out and deal with it.”

Dylan Berry: “Yeah, talking to Wayne Martin, major music label representative of the major labels for years, also indie music label executive for the Knitting Factory, and other companies, and also is a music licensing executive, you were at Harry Fox Agency, is this true?”

Wayne Martin: “It was, yeah.”

Dylan Berry: “How was that experience?”

Wayne Martin: “Wild, it was wild.”

Luke Danelon: “I’d like to hear about that off the record sometime.”

Dylan Berry: “I still don’t get how Harry Fox works.”

Wayne Martin: “People that work there don’t get it either, so..” (laughs all around)

Dylan Berry: “I’m like bro, I get ASCAP and BMI, what the hell is Harry doing...” (laughs)

Wayne Martin: “So, ASCAP and BMI, that’s your radio, that’s your performance, right? Well, you know Harry Fox was founded for mechanicals, for all those royalties for everything you record, right? But that’s transitioned to streaming and digital and all that kind of stuff, and the Music Modernization Act and all that stuff happened. So, they’ve been absorbed by SESAC and moved around and changed things, but back when I was with them they were really just going through technology upgrades and they brought in some people like me to kind of work with the realities of how the company needed to function, so I had a staff of sixteen and twenty-eight-thousand publishing clients.”

Dylan Berry: “Allright, Wayne Martin, thank you for coming out, man I appreciate you being on the show.”

Wayne Martin: “Absolutely, thank you.”

Dylan Berry: “Luke Danelon, thank you very much, brother, for coming out.”

Luke Danelon: “Thank you Dylan, and Wayne, nice to meet you, sir.”

Wayne: “You too, you too.”

Luke Danelon: “Thank you!”

Dylan Berry: “Yeah, that was a great panel discussion there, I think that I learned a lot, and ya know that’s what we do here on BomPop TV, BomPop Radio. And vigilant and violent support of independent musicians and the artistic life, so, um, thank you all for listening. You can find us

online at BomPop TV, you can find me at Dylan Berry Official on Instagram and everywhere else, Luke, where can they find you?”

Luke Danelon: “Ya know what? Ghost Rock at music dot com, that’s the best place.”

Dylan Berry: “Also look up Nikki’s Wives, they’re dope.”

Luke Danelon: “Yeah, they’re great.”

Dylan Berry: “Wayne, where can they find you?”

Wayne Martin: “Online... mthree...1!0 that’s spelled out m-three-dot-online.”

Dylan Berry: “Alright fellas, thanks for being on the show, adios, BomPop! We’d like to thank today’s sponsors: Houlihan’s, Avon and the Harry Fox Agency....”


What Is Success? | Music Consultant

The following is a guest post by R. Wayne Martin, founder and principal of mthree, a music industry service company launched in January 2019. Wayne is a 35-year veteran of the American music industry who got his start at CBS Records working as a marketing representative for their roster of artists at Columbia Records, Epic Records, and nearly a dozen other corporate partners and imprints.